Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Welcome to youo Odyssey Podcast, where your guides, Tara and Karen invite you on a transformative journey toward wholeness and personal growth.
Each week, we'll discuss topics related to the human experience and offer insights to help you along the way.
Please note this podcast should not replace medical care or advice.
We are not licensed healthcare professionals or mental health therapists.
If you enjoyed today's episode, subscribe so you don't miss out on our future discussions.
So, explorers, let's dive into today's episode.
Welcome explorers. It's Tara. Today, Karen and I are discussing forgiveness, a topic that's deeply intertwined with our friendship, our formative forgiveness experience, which I refer to as Puppygate 2020.
More on that in a moment.
Forgiveness isn't only about letting go of past hurts. It's a powerful act that frees us and opens the door to healing. When we choose to forgive, we create space for compassion and understanding.
So grab your favorite drink, get comfortable, and join us as we share our journey of forgiveness and the important lessons we've learned.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: Oh, it's going to be doozy, y' all.
Forgiveness is for you, not for them.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: Okay, here we go. Forgiveness is a deeply personal journey, a complex emotional and psychological process that involves letting go of resentment, anger, or the desire for revenge against someone who has caused harm or disappointment.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Ooh, it's already packing a punch.
Oh my goodness.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Pretty powerful.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: Emotionally, forgiveness can be seen as a release from the negative feelings associated with the hurtful experience.
It allows us to move beyond pain and regain a sense of peace and emotional well being. Corey ten Boom said Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: So you can choose forgiveness no matter how you feel.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: Yes, it is a choice we make independent of our own feelings.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: I think everybody, you got that right. Forgiveness is a choice regardless of the feelings associated either in the moment, in the past, whatever it is.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: Yeah, Psychologically, forgiveness can lead to many benefits, including reduced stress, anxiety, and depression.
Studies suggest that those who practice forgiveness can experience improved mental health, better relationships, and overall sense of empowerment. Here's another quote by American author, ethicist and theologian Louis Smedes. To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: But boom. I love that so much.
It's so true. Right? If you've ever been through that process of holding on to anger and resentment and just feeling terrible and seething, like there's black goop churning up and acid burning your inside and then you decide to let it go and forgive, it's Whoo. And it's so empowering to know that at any moment you can choose that release. You can choose letting go of that, surrendering it and sending forgiveness to the person or situation and to yourself for holding onto it for so long.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Right. Because when we hold onto it, it reminds me of the sermon talking about stones. And you hold on to that stone of unforgiveness, creates bitterness and resentment and all these ugly things. But it's also weighing you down. And when you make that choice to forgive, it gets a little bit smaller. Like soon it just turns into a grain of sand. Like it's never completely gone or maybe a speck of dust.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: I. You're certainly not carrying it. You're probably gone through your fingers. It's definitely dropped to the ground.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: The earth is holding it. It's all good. Yeah. It's such a powerful act, the act of forgiveness.
Like you said, it has so many emotional and psychological benefits and physical. Because when we hold on to anger and hurt and frustration and it's seething inside of us, it will in fact turn into some form of disease or illness. Generally stress related, like probably heart issues. Right. I mean, I'm just thinking like there's so many ways that onto that bitterness and that that black goop can just screw up your health.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Yeah. I was doing research, like why do you need to do research on forgiveness? Because I want to see what the people were saying about forgiveness to make sure that what we say about forgiveness and makes sense to more than just us. Yeah.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: I think it's brilliant. I think it's brilliant because there's tons of research about it.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Research about it. It is link to a suppressed immune system which invites all kinds of issues.
Who would think that the weight of unforgiveness would have this negative ripple effect in your life? Do you think you are doing more harm to whoever is unforgiven when they are going about their lives?
[00:05:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it doesn't matter to them. They don't really. I can't really speak for them. I can't say it's not affecting them. But the bulk of the effect is on you because you are carrying that like you're carrying that weight and you are the one suffering.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:47] Speaker B: Only you can set yourself free.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Only you.
Let's talk about a few forgiveness falses first. Is that forgiveness equals reconciliation.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: Oh, that's a good one. Because they're not the same thing.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: No.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: You can dissolve like the hatred and all that in your heart and never have to speak to that person again. That's okay, right? People think you have to walk up to them and shake hands, hug, I forgive you, blah blah, blah. None of that has to occur.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: Forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean that you restore the relationship or the trust. It's like Karen said, you're choosing to let go of the resentment and the anger for your own peace. I was reminded from the book Grace is Greater. It said that total reconciliation requires both forgiveness from the offendant and repentance from the offender.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Oh, that's reconciliation.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: That reconciliation is two sided.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: Forgiveness is one sided, offended. And the offender have to both be willing to participate for total reconciliation.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: That makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it?
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: I'm have to work on some forgiveness in a little while.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: All right. Second is forgiveness is instantaneous.
There's this idea that forgiveness should happen quickly or that it's a one time event.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: I love how you said that.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: Forgiveness is a process that takes time and often involves a range of emotions.
It's normal to revisit the feelings of hurt before fully letting go.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: It's similar to grief. Right. There's just all these steps that you kind of have to go through and it takes a little bit of time.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: Oh yeah.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: And then another big falsehood is that forgiveness means accepting wrongdoing.
Forgiveness does not mean that you're condoning actions or letting that person off the hook. Forgiveness can happen without excusing or justifying the behavior.
Forgiveness is about freeing yourself from the emotional burden. Exactly. Not dismissing what happened.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: It has nothing to do with what happened or the repercussions of that for that person. It's really spotlight's on you for forgiveness and it's for your peace. I love the way you said that.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: I just want to also point out that we're not taking this lightly. I know some horrendous things occur and I've got to imagine it's pretty darn near impossible to forgive certain people and certain acts.
But man, it's even true in that case. Right. It's still about you and your peace. And you're not condoning it. You're not saying it's right. You're not saying it's okay.
You're not even saying you're happy about it. Like I even think you're at peace with it. But you are letting that bitterness about the thing that you cannot change anyway. You're letting that go. And that is for you. That serves you and your family, your closest people.
That's gotta be really challenging.
[00:08:43] Speaker A: I not even imagine the Big F forgiveness that would be required for those types of hurts.
Just to reiterate, forgiveness is fundamentally about the forgiver because it allows us to release the emotional burden of anger, resentment and negativity.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: Ooh.
[00:09:03] Speaker A: Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves, promoting personal growth and resilience rather than an obligation to. Toward the wrongdoer. I totally understand that message.
Here we go. We gonna buckle up and Karen and I are gonna get into a reflective time machine.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: Okay. We're going there right now. I just wanna say one thing. Forgiveness of other people is important, but I wanna even say perhaps not as important as forgiving yourself. It's probably in some ways easier to forgive someone else because we on ourselves. So there's that aspect of forgiveness too. Self forgiveness. Since we're about to get into this, there's going to be a lot of talk on my end from that.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Cuz we're going to.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: It took me a long, long road of that.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: All right. This puppy gate 2020 transpired. It's been about five years now. This is probably the first time since the beginning of our forgiveness path that we've actually sat down to talk about this.
[00:10:05] Speaker B: And you're going to get it.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Live moment.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: This should be interesting. I'm excited for it though, because I really do want to.
Yeah, I think it's going to be really good.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: It is, absolutely. So forgiveness is a process that allows us to heal and reclaim our peace. Karen and I are going to talk about our formative forgiveness experience Puppy Gate 2020, which involved a very cute puppy, which led to a not so cute separation.
I will let Karen start the story in September of 2020.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: Okay, okay, here we go.
It is about six months, seven months into the global pandemic world shutting down.
I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to set the scene.
My mindset, which on the best of days may not make the best decisions considering everything as I look back now in forgiveness for myself, I can be like, oh, well, this, this and this way. I mean like you were primed for just being ridiculous In a lot of ways there was a relationship that had ended a long time coming and like in and out for three years. And it was really important for it to end for my sanity and my health really.
And.
And then pandemic or that's all happening around the same time.
And my kids are home homeschooling my.
My kids who bless their hearts and probably everybody in the world was feeling highly anxious at that time.
So we're all home in this cozy little bungalow house and My daughter says, can we get a puppy? And my first response is like, oh, hell no.
Absolutely not. But she had asked on and off for, like.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: I mean, she asked my sibling. And you gave her that, too, right?
[00:11:55] Speaker B: Well, it's not a shock that I was like, well, okay, let's just go look. Famous last words. So she finds this puppy, and we bring this puppy home because he's teeny tiny and adorable. He was so tiny and so much work. It was like I had a third baby in a house where I am the single parent, and I didn't do well.
You know, sleeping every three hours with infants with a partner. You can imagine how well I did.
Being the only one up through the night, taking a puppy outside every two hours. It was ridiculous.
He was so cute and damn near killed me.
So we actually got him in November. He was born in September, so we got him in November.
Right around Thanksgiving week.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it was like, the end. The end of November.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: Yeah. So my two closest women folk down here, Tara and our other friend, came over, you know, see the new puppy and see him. And I'm. I really feel like I'm losing my mind. I'm like, four or five days in, and I'm like, I can't do this. I cannot do this. I'm losing my mind. I cannot sleep. I shouldn't have said yes to this puppy. I'm just going through a spiral, y' all.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: And we were just like, look how cute he is, and snuggle up on your chest, and we're like, what do you mean? He's adorable.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it was too much for me. And meanwhile, my kids are in love with this puppy. This puppy is in their hearts, and they are the happiest clams in the world, and I could not be more miserable.
And that was part of it for me, too, was that balance of what do I do to take care of myself? I said yes to something that I really was not prepared to do. I was in no shape to do it emotionally, physically, and psychologically. And so I said yes to this thing for my kids. And the thing I was struggling was.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Yeah, she said yes for someone else.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: I said yes for. For someone else. And that is a recipe for disaster.
And so when I finally started coming up for air, I was thinking I.
This was a mistake.
This was not a good idea.
Do you want to take it from here?
[00:14:15] Speaker A: My friend texts me and ask if we would take this puppy. And I'm freaking out because my husband and I always said, yeah, we'll get a dog once we get a fence. We had all of these parameters around what it would look like once we got a dog.
But I was like, because you are.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Planners, which is something I envy and love about you. Okay?
[00:14:37] Speaker A: But we couldn't. I was like, well, Karen's asked us if we would take him. And I'm like, dude, what? What do we do? Because I understand, like, she's struggling. We'll take. We'll figure it out. On this end, we negotiate a price for said puppy immediately. I don't even remember that I go to Petco because I'm like, I have nothing here. It's like someone dumped a baby in my lap. And I was like, I have nothing. I was like, well, I gotta go get something for him to eat and this, that, and whatever.
So I do these things.
Send Karen the money for puppy, and then comes the puppy drop off time, y' all.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: You say trauma.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: Puppy drop off time involved my family, Karen and her kids, her daughter's boyfriend. And it was a whole tear filled scene in my backyard.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: I can feel it in my stomach right now as you explain it. And I revisit it in my mind. Terrible.
[00:15:30] Speaker A: There were tears everywhere. Meanwhile, me and my parents were like, so, we getting a puppy? Or like, what are we doing?
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Because my kids are looking at me like, I'm a monster. How could you do this? They're having to say goodbye to this very adorable puppy because their mother can't handle it.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: And then that was, like, trying to reassure them. I'm like, he'll be here so you'll be able to visit. I'm like, it's gonna be fine.
All right. Get the puppy. Tears. They leave. And then a few hours goes by and my friend texts me and calls me out of the blue. Mind you. I'm trying to get this puppy acclimated to yet another new environment. And I'm like, what is going on? Why is she calling? Why is she texting? And then I listened to your voicemail saying that you had made a mistake and you're going to send the money back. And then you immediately sent the money back. Like, there was no conversation.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: Didn't even ask you. I didn't even.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: It was terrible. It was not good. So I'm in confusion because the puppy that we committed to, and so we're like, he's ours now, so we've already bonded. But that was another mistake. I can understand where you were in the swirl of emotions, but I was livid. I was like, oh, so you coming back to get him? Okay.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: I mean, I did not for one second consider your family, how you felt and how it was going to go down. I was just like, I screwed up and I've got to make this better. And I have basically traumatized my kids. I feel terrible. Me taking him back was also me doing something for someone else. Like, I just want to be very.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Clear about the cycle, the thing the uncle of.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Like, I'm constant.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: Like.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: Like, no good can come. No good can come of this at all. And I also want to remind you that two days before, you asked me.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: Several times, so many times before the drop off, like, there was a grace period in between the question and the coordinated drop off.
[00:17:13] Speaker B: And you said to me, if I agree to this, we have to agree that this deal is closed. Like, this is what we're doing. This is our dog, and you have to agree to that. And I was like, yeah, I can do that. I can totally do it. And do you remember that you guys came to my house a few hours before?
Because I guess you thought you're coming here to pick him up, and I thought I was going to bring him there. The entire thing was a catastrophe.
And you were rightly livid. I was not in my right mind. Now I'm not even sure what that even is. There was a lot of reasons why I did not behave well, and none of them are excuses for my behavior, my decisions and my actions.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: None of them. I did not for one second consider how you felt, which is terrible.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: Right. I was livid. So I'm like, well, she's here now to get. So I'm gonna get all of these things. And I was like, well, if you are coming back to get him, you have to come in and apologize to my entire family. I'm like, you don't just get to come scoop him up. Like, that's is not what we're going to do. So you're going to own it and you're going to apologize to them. Yeah, that was more tears, which I did.
[00:18:25] Speaker B: I did. I felt terrible. I at least know that this was not healthy and it was not good. And I hurt a lot of people all across the board. On my side, on your side. All of the things hurt. I just was hurting everybody left and right.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: It's like porcupine spikes. Like, all of it just going out to everyone. And I was like, okay, well, you have to come in and apologize to everyone. And she did, and we gave him back. And that was just like, oh, I'm never speaking to this woman again in my life. Because I cannot believe she hurt me. My kids. You can treat me whatever, any type of way. That's fine. But my kids involved now. So now I got to go to war for my kids. But I was like, oh, yeah, we are done forever. And this is. I don't see how we come back from this. I don't know how we do it.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. In my mind, I was like.
I think because I was so ungrounded, I knew. I was like, this is not good. This is bad. I know that I'm feeling very unstable emotionally for so many reasons, the breakup being a huge one, and I know that this is not good, but I. I didn't think of it in those terms of, like, yeah, dead to me. You know what I mean? Like, I was like, okay, this is going to take some time to come back from. I was like, three months, six months. Like, we'll talk it out.
It was not my finest hour, I will say that.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: But even in that, I will say the silver lining, the beauty, for me, it accelerated. It's like, oh, we actually have the capacity now. We can love a puppy. Now, fast forward a few weeks. I'm, like, showing pictures to my husband. I'm like, look at him. He's ours. So I drive up to the mountains and get our dog. And I'm like, oh, it had to happen when it happened, because we were in a pandemic. I was still working from home, house training a puppy was exhausting, all of that. To say that there is this general process that we went through as a forgiver, forgiveee offender, offended two people. Just two people doing this life thing. And the first part of that was the acknowledgement of hurt.
For me, a big piece of the forgiveness journey beyond having Karen apologized to my kids was afterwards.
You wrote a note.
I brought it with me because, yes, I still have it, because, yes, yes, I do.
So she wrote a note to everyone in my family.
And even before that, in conversations, Karen said she didn't consider the impact that would have on me and my family.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Y' all, I had no idea that she. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: And with the note, because she knew that we were also in the process of getting a puppy. Not because I told her, but on the outside of the envelope, it says, PS, you to have your stuff for when your puppy comes.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: I knew, honestly, that is the thing that got me through, was the silver lining that you would not have gotten that sweet boy that you have, who is now my dog's cousin, if that all didn't go down. And that was really. I mean, no kidding. That was the breadcrumb that literally sustained.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: Me through, like, if time of hell.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: That I look at.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: I'm trying to. Okay, so I'm gonna pull, like, this is the timeline, y' all. The timeline of forgiveness. It was the last week, so the day before Thanksgiving. My God. Yeah, it was the day before Thanksgiving.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: I mean, good Lord, could it be anyone?
[00:21:44] Speaker A: It was the day before Thanksgiving, and then two and a half weeks later, I had my puppy. Karen's note, which speaks to the acknowledgment of hurt and emotions.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: It says, I can't believe you're gonna do this.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: I am. I am deeply and truly sorry for the pain and heartache that I've caused you. I was selfish to not consider your feelings in all of this.
I didn't want to give up on my puppy or the kids or myself. But I was so ungrounded and conflicted when I let him go. But I hurt you all in the process. And I do regret that. I have been through a reckoning, a dark night of the soul. And I'm sorry for bringing you into the vortex of uncertainty and unworthiness I was feeling. You were innocent, kind, loving bystanders in a personal battle I was waging to keep my heart open, to feel worthy of this joy, and to feel capable of the responsibility of a puppy.
Why I had to risk my integrity and our friendship to learn this painful lesson, I do not know. I am not proud of my behavior. And this letter is not to excuse my behavior, but to apologize and try to explain what was going on in my heart and mind. I truly hope that someday you can all forgive me. With great love and respect, Karen.
Some might be wondering why I kept this as a reminder. And it's like with my puppy stuff, because like Karen said, without the.
We would not be the proud puppy parents to our puppy.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: And he is a He.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: He. Yeah.
I was like, this note, and then the things that came along with it was a big step in softening the hardening of my heart towards this relationship.
She not only acknowledged that there was pain done, but she's taking accountability in a bit more.
Framing the experience more than just the betrayal.
It was giving me and my family this space to process what had happened outside of the incident.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: God, this is why we haven't talked about it.
We don't need to. We don't ever need to talk about that again.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: No.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: Oh, man. I am not proud of that. I'm proud of the way I recovered and the way I communicated My love and apology to you. That was actually beautifully written.
I don't honestly know how I wrote.
[00:24:14] Speaker A: That in the moment, but that also speaks to your self forgiveness journey. You acknowledged there was harm in that. And also removing guilt and shame and processing the experience like where you were. I don't think if we would have gone through this experience, you would have processed all of those big feelings in that vortex in this way.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: I see what you're saying. It took me much longer to really, like I was saying before about self forgiveness, to really forgive myself, because I.
I just felt like I had never hurt anybody like that in my life.
[00:24:51] Speaker A: Like, I was.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: I was so devastated that I could be capable of that.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: I remember saying to you in the. In between, fresh after it happened, and you were like, it was never my intent to do this to you all. And I was like, well, intentional and unintentional feels the same to us. The impact is still the same to us.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:25:10] Speaker A: So it was just like, oh, Tara, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? And of course, everybody else is like, wherever you go, mama, that's where we gonna go. So if you following this way, then okay, then that's what we're gonna do. And I was like, okay, look at the people.
[00:25:25] Speaker B: This is a moment.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: People looking at me to model something. The next phase of that was understanding the impact of the feelings that happened. We acknowledged the hurt. And then, like I said, I explained to Karen the impact that it was on our family. He was only with us for, like, four hours, y' all. Like, it was crazy.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: But there were several days leading up to that.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: And the anticipation, like, he had already peed on a rug in our house. Like, oh, he here now. Like, he marking his territory.
So I feel like I had a choice to make. Either I'm going to hold on to this burden of unforgiveness and use this as a big shame against the years of friendship that we already had, or I was gonna find a way to move through it. And the choice, the decision to lean into joy and the remembrance of who you were as a person is like the scale. Like, oh, of course this is out of character. This is not who she is, was.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: The behavior, not the person.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: Exactly. So two and a half weeks later, we had a puppy. And then I was a little bit mad at Karen, too, because I'm like, birthday coming up. I already had a gift in mind. I'm like, I don't even want to give her a gift now. But the birthday coming up was the Gateway for me to be like, hey, I'm sending you something for your birthday.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: And it's like, I don't know how you did that. Three weeks later, I don't know how you did it. Honestly, I thought it was like six months. In my mind, every day felt like forever.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: Just a month. Probably those days were exponentially extended because it's still the pandemic and we're still in this exactly weird bubble of time. But I was like, man, I have this gift of mine that I wanted to get birthday. Now I can get it to her because I don't even want to talk to her ever again. Like this crazy.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: And if, you know Tara, y' all just want to insert that. When she has an idea of something that she wants to do as a giver, she wants to do it. And how. How dare I do something that will stop her from giving someone something she wanted to give them? She is a giver.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: I was like, this is gonna be really good. It's the journal. I think it was like, find your effing happy. I was like, you gotta work through this process. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna still do it. And I feel like if I can still give this way, if I can still show up and remember and remind you that you are valuable, you are not this experience, then we gonna be okay. We're gonna be okay.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: And that was a gift you gave both of us. That act, that expression of love, regardless of behavior, was very impactful.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And then for me, it took a while to come back to this person that I can trust.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: That was the rebuilding of the trust that you were like, I can't trust you.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: I have to set some boundaries. And it's like, okay, how do we get there? Part of that was the communication that you and I shared about the experience and growing together. We were very open and honest about our feelings. Any concerns moving forward? How do I make it better with this person? How do I reaffirm and rebuild the sense of security in this relationship? And I think you wouldn't have been able to do that on your own. I had to be like, the door is open. So this gets us back to the total reconciliation that I'm into.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: It was not one sided at all. There's nothing I could have done if you didn't want.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: I was like, I'm gonna choose it. And I will say that since then, in this business, celebrating milestones and being there for each other, supporting each other, good, bad, ugly and different, through some ups, some good highs, Real good. But through it all, in this past almost five years, it's been consistent. Which just reminds me of like, who is this person? What is their true character? It is not one of hurt and harm and distrust or misinformation. Like, that's not true. Like that was the experience. That was out of character.
[00:29:18] Speaker B: That was the falsehood.
[00:29:19] Speaker A: Exactly. That was the story and a lot of it too. Especially in that three or so weeks in between. There was a lot of patience and prayer.
I feel like that was one of the biggest acts of faith in my adult life, where faith and grace, where it's like, okay, someone on the outside won't really understand this, but because I have been forgiven, it would be just inappropriate for me not to forgive. It would be completely inappropriate.
Do I want to take it a step further and actually be in relationship?
I was like, let's try it. Let's see what happens. Let's see how this works out. I don't regret the choice too.
Move towards total reconciliation. If you would have asked me December 1, 2020, would we be here sitting across from each other in May of 2025? Absolutely not. I don't know that woman.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Like I'd never want to be around her ever again in my life.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: I'm glad I did. I'm glad I chose love. I'm glad I chose to lean into joy and the remembrance of who you were and who you are and what you stand for.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that is a perfect example of stepping outside of the act, outside of the circumstance and trying to make sense of it in some way. Right. And even though you didn't have to, you were trying to understand my side of it. Even in the despair, even in your anger, even in the mistrust, you gave me the benefit of the doubt that this was not who I am. And I will say that period of time, I mean, no joke, there was like six months.
I didn't forgive myself for much longer than Itera to forgive me. Like I did not let that go, you know, because I would bring it up every couple months. I could not let go. I couldn't lay the burden down.
And I was working through a lot of self worth issues and just the idea of truly being alone. There was so much fear in my life in those moments that in some ways it makes sense to me that I would be acting so erratically because I was, was so scared. I was in so much pain and I was unearthing stuff from my childhood and feelings of not feeling worthy, not feeling seen and understood and heard and so Many things that I'd been running from my whole life. And I swear to you, that all came down in that, like, three to six month period.
And I would not be who I am and how I am in this moment here today if I didn't go through that. But that was an elongated, dark night of the soul. Once I could realize that there was a lot going on for me in my own healing journey, I could more easily understand myself and forgive myself. How I behaved because of all of that, I'm not making excuses for it, but I could also separate from it and see, wow, like, there was all of that going on. No wonder why you were. It was bad. Like, it was probably the lowest point of my life. Honest. Like, really, no joke.
That period of time was probably the lowest, darkest of my Life.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: Okay, well, 45 minutes into this experience, we are going to take a break and move our bodies and process through some of the memories and emotions and celebrate where we are now. This song beautifully conveys the importance of letting go of grudges and finding peace through forgiveness, y' all. Peace, Peace. That's it.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: That's it. And we've come so far.
[00:32:56] Speaker A: And the song is Forgiveness by Toby Mack featuring Lecrae, two of my favorite artists. I love them so much.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, this is amazing.
[00:33:09] Speaker A: Check out this week's song on the YO Podcast playlist on Spotify.
[00:33:18] Speaker B: That might have been the most necessary movement dance thing we've done yet.
You know, when we first started, I was moving differently. And by the end, I felt such joy. Light, like, very light. Wow. There was three incidences in my library where I was like, wow, I can recall them. And that was the third. It just takes me a long time to really forgive myself and let it go. I've had other people forgive me way sooner. I guess what I'm trying to say is it feels really heavy when you do something that hurts someone, but you can choose forgiveness for yourself also. Like, we are human. We all make mistakes.
Just like the song said. Like, self forgiveness is just as, if not more important.
[00:34:01] Speaker A: And you did model a very beautiful example of, like, owning.
Owning the hurt, owning the harm. I wasn't fully aware of your internal struggles with the process of self forgiveness. Because in my mind, be like, well, I forgave you. You should forgive yourself now. Like, oh, instantaneous magic. Ha. You continue to, like, as you said, like, bring it up and beat yourself up.
Yeah, really apologize for the harm. But it's like, but look, we both have crazy pandemic puppies, so Silver Lining.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: Is it, though? Is it terrible? Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: But in the grand scheme of life, in this journey, we are now at our question of the day, and the question is, God, we didn't do that yet. I know. The question is, there's going to be so much that's got to be cut out of this episode. What role does empathy play in forgiving?
[00:34:54] Speaker B: I mean, it's so primary. Right. It's right up there. Because if you can suspend your own experience and put yourself in that person's shoes, maybe, you know, like what they were going through or what they were feeling or what could have happened in their lives that made them be the purveyor of that behavior. That hurt. Right. That trauma, whatever it is. If you can do that, then you can at some point get to forgiveness.
[00:35:22] Speaker A: I'm a sprinkling it because again, there is so many beautiful quotes about forgiveness, which this quote from poet and social critic bell hooks is what I'm about to say. Bell hooks said, for me, forgiveness and compassion are always linked. How do we hold people accountable for wrongdoing and yet at the same time remain in touch with their humanity enough to believe in their capacity to be transformed? Empathy is the bridge that connects our understanding of those actions to our decision to let go. Empathy is that bridge because it humanizes the person and it separates the person from the behavior.
[00:36:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:36:04] Speaker A: There is a certain level of empathy that is possible in order to broker forgiveness.
[00:36:11] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
And also. And that goes along with kindness and compassion for ourselves forever, wherever we are in that process of forgiveness, you don't have to rush it. The awareness is a big part. I feel like I just want people to allow softness around it. There are going to be disappointments and hurts and things that happen, and there are terrible things that happen, but you don't want to hold on to that. Your own body on your journey that is not going to serve you or anyone else.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: And then in terms of self forgiveness, especially if you are the person that has done the harm separating yourself from the act so you can be like, okay, that's not who I am. When you're like, oh, this is out of character for me. This is not who I am. This is not who I want to be. This is not how I want to show up in the world. That also filters into self forgiveness. Like, we all, as the song says, we all make mistakes, we all fall short, but we are capable of more. We are capable of love, we are capable of joy, we are capable of wholeness. And a lot of the hurt and the Harm comes from those broken places.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: Yeah, those broken places are.
I mean, that's where the opportunities for learning and growth are. And it's not pretty or comfortable sometimes.
[00:37:31] Speaker A: No, there's some sharp edges. They hurt.
They hurt.
[00:37:34] Speaker B: They do.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: All right, time. We gotta get out this episode.
[00:37:38] Speaker B: Can we please close it up?
[00:37:41] Speaker A: Okay. As we wrap up today's discussion on forgiveness, remember, it's an ongoing journey, not a destination. Embracing forgiveness allows us to cultivate compassion and understanding within ourselves and towards others, which enriches our relationships and enhances our emotional well being. Whether we're forgiving someone else or finding the grace to forgive ourselves, the process is vital to our growth and healing.
[00:38:06] Speaker B: You want to hear something funny? That I was not able to forgive myself until I saw how you forgave me. That was a beautiful example. I was like, well, if Tara can forgive me and I know how much I hurt her, then I've got to let myself off the hook. It still took me several months, but that was the thing that helped me get to the point where I could forgive myself.
[00:38:27] Speaker A: Because we wouldn't be in relationship like we. The trajectory of everything would have changed.
[00:38:32] Speaker B: So much loss of so much value and goodness in the world. Thank goodness.
[00:38:37] Speaker A: Well, that reminds me, I have a real official quote for this episode. This quote is from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
He said, Forgiveness is not an occasional act. It is a constant attitude.
[00:38:53] Speaker B: Well, there's nothing else to say.
It's a process and it's always ongoing.
[00:38:58] Speaker A: I think about, like every time you remember a hurt or whatever it is, you choose all over again to forgive that person.
Explorers choose peace.
Yes, explorers, we hope our reflections on forgiveness inspire you to approach challenges with a forgiving heart. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. Until next time, keep nurturing your spirit of forgiveness and we'll see you in the next episode.
[00:39:24] Speaker B: We all human, let's all forgive ourselves and move forward in love and trust and kindness and compassion and grace.
Thank you for listening to our story and allowing us to walk through that process. It was really powerful for me and I think really valuable. So thanks for allowing us to be in your lives and your ears and your hearts. And we love you so much. Take good care.
Thank you to Queenies in downtown Durham for the use of their community podcast studio and for welcoming us so warmly. Each week we'd like to give a shout out to Coco Cinnamon, the birthplace of 1023 Media and the yo podcast. Please support your local women owned minority owned coffee shop in downtown Durham.
Brought to you by Durham based 1023 Media, a heart centered woman owned multimedia company.
